1. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430148 by Nunbeliever on November 7, 2009 at 11:36 am

Carl Sagan! They don't make 'em like that anymore :-(

2. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430147 by phil rimmer on November 7, 2009 at 11:17 am

Big T

The remark about black churches was made by a black man, in fact. You may wish to amend your comment.

I think Jos Gibbons' points still stand, however.

3. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430146 by The Truth, the light on November 7, 2009 at 11:17 am

How is "Don't believe in God?" a provocative question?

It's like asking, "Don't like eating brussel sprouts? You're not alone".

4. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430145 by Paula Kirby on November 7, 2009 at 10:47 am

Nunbeliever: Singer refused to answer whether he thinks it's morally right to cause a dog severe suffering for biting an infant.

As I read the exchange, it wasn't a question of whether it's morally right to cause a dog severe suffering FOR biting an infant. It was whether it would be morally right to cause a dog severe suffering to PREVENT it biting an infant, if it could be shown that the suffering caused to the dog would be greater than the suffering caused to the infant if it were bitten.

In other words, is it morally acceptable to cause a lot of suffering to a non-human animal in order to avoid a smaller amount of suffering to a human one?

I thought Peter Singer did answer it, actually: I thought his answer was no.

5. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430144 by PERSON on November 7, 2009 at 10:05 am

1. Comment #429987 by WilliamSatire on November 6, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Ah, but as the old saying goes:
Me against my brother
Me and my brother against my neighbour
Me, my brother and my neighbour against the world

That's why the churches are slowly melting together. It'll take a while, but I'd be very surprised if the trend in the number of denominations has not been downwards for a long time.

The greatest cause of faction is lack of apparent threat.

6. Beware Of Demonic Candy!!!

Comment #430143 by alexhouse on November 7, 2009 at 9:51 am

I just looked at the website that somebody posted earlier http://www.demonbuster.com. I'm stuck in Poe's Law.

Somebody tell me is this real or a parody?

7. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430142 by PERSON on November 7, 2009 at 9:48 am

"But the percentage was hypothetical. A tool to show the idea. Singer refused to answer whether he thinks it's morally right to cause a dog severe suffering for biting an infant."
What does "severe" mean? Excessive? Then logically, no. Should we cause it pain to prevent it repeating the act? Well, if it would work, perhaps. Sadly it couldn't be guaranteed to, and the option taken usually when an animal attacks a child is to kill it. It is seen as unfair to cause suffering to animals because they cannot distinguish right and wrong, and thus do not deserve suffering. That is generally accepted. Interestingly, the converse-- that humans can and thus do-- is not (I think). Perhaps the first needs re-examining?

I think that there are some people who think that criminals should be rehabilitated, and only punished insofar as that assists the process. They should not be made to suffer per se.

Taking it further is the view that they should not suffer at all, and that suffering is the sole cause of their criminal behaviour. But perhaps no-one believes that any more? Perhaps they never did, and it was just a straw man authoritarian revenge-peddlers like to attack?

"Or whether we are morally allowed to kill one person to save 100 gorillas? He just REFUSED to answer this question which I think was of great importance. And that made me frustrated."
I think the answer to the second question is that the summation is not linear. A million toenails don't equate to a person, so 100 gorillas don't. Further, the best reason for not killing gorillas is not their inherent worth as individuals, IMO (though it shouldn't be entirely dismissed either).

8. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430141 by retep57 on November 7, 2009 at 9:18 am

Full credit to CH and SF. Well done!

Finally got to see this, would have like to have heard more from Christopher and Stephen, they did such a good job, i thought i had heard all this stuff before but CH and SF not only argue intelligently but come across as genuinely meaning what they say. With the widely read, informed clever, witty Ch and SF you would think they could probably win either side of most debated, somehow this debate is just to important to flippantly argue a case just for debating points. The only debater who might have sounded a bit like disagreeing just to say the opposite to another side as a knee jerk reaction was the politician - which i guess is what we expect of them but it is annoying.

Hmm copies of this debate might make good christmas presents !

9. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430140 by PERSON on November 7, 2009 at 9:15 am

"14. Comment #429803 by galaieva on November 5, 2009 at 8:55 pm
the catholics are easy prey for us :) Let us not even notice them, their numbers are getting so small"
Yeah, I mean there's only a billion or so of them.

P.S. "Abortion isn't healthcare, because killing is not healing" So no radiotherapy or chemo for Catholics. Tumours have the potential to become human beings (with a little genetic manipulation and cloning techniques). No amputations either, since that would kill the limb.
And as for saving mothers that would be killed by completing pregnancy, the maths is simple:
fetus == God's (via limbo)
woman == not God's (or the slut wouldn't be considering abortion)
=>
fetus > woman
QED

Excuse me, but I have a fever today, and am hallucinating slightly. What I have just seen is a YouTube video of a chorus of foetuses in differing early phases of development singing in pinky and perky fashion "Praise ye the Lord (Hallelujah)" with the shot cutting between them, split screening, etc. The punchline was at the end, a black card with the text "Only animals were used in the making of this film".

10. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430139 by A on November 7, 2009 at 8:40 am

The question: Is there an atheist schism?

Yes. On the issue of whether there is a god, the atheist community is split right down the middle, those who defiantly believe there to be no god (or think the idea unreasonable) and those who actively believe in the revealed truth of Jesus O'Christ.

I thankfully find myself in the latter group of atheists - and it is us who are being schismed, we need to bring our two warring sides together and face the real threat, theological non-cognitivism.

What do you mean 'schismed' is not a real word ?

Etc etc . . . . ad confusia.

(Ok, I am making up Latin now, I best go).

11. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430138 by andersemil on November 7, 2009 at 8:34 am

50. Comment #430130 by FuerstOpus

I agree with you that the best strategy is unknown. But I also agree with Sam Harris and Prof Dawkins that the dedicated religious mind is a dangerous entity because it allows for insane acts to be justified by ancient and highly immoral doctrine. Thus there is a natural tendency for atheists to become frustrated and scared at the fact that religious delusion persists today _even though_ science has progressed so far and proven so much-- at least back then they didn't know any better. As Dr Andy Thompson and V.S. Ramachandra have pointed out in several talks, there seems to be a capacity in the human brain to believe in something which directly contradicts and overrides what other parts of the same brain will rationally deduct. If we knew this mechanism and why it exists better, we would probably be more accomodating.

The short story is, people will always fight for their ideas. But we need to stress that science is always subject to its own criticism-- that is, there are no believes to be held, only evidence-based facts which will last until a new experiment contradicts the theory. This is the biggest and most important difference between us and the religious.

12. 'Why Evolution Is True'

Comment #430137 by Thylacoleo on November 7, 2009 at 8:32 am

@ Comment #429387 by Mark Lowley

I managed to convince my high school library to buy The God Delusion as part of its next intake :D
I thought it was a great victory until, after I returned it, one my friends borrowed it... Their dog ate it...

13. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430136 by Big T on November 7, 2009 at 7:20 am

Jos Gibbons: Martin Luther King Jr. once said something to the effect that the most segregated time in America was Sunday morning. And, you are correct, sir, to feel that the remark about "black churches" smacks of racism. I guarantee you the person who said that thinks that black people are too dumb to rationally evaluate a billboard about atheism.

14. Creationism, Minus a Young Earth, Emerges in the Islamic World

Comment #430135 by kev_s on November 7, 2009 at 7:17 am

@ ramfalls My guess is that a thousand was just what desert nomads thought was an extremely large number in their experience. They knew it was a long time relative to human life and came up with a thousand to represent 'a long time'. Also, remember that the religious have to sell their ideas to the potentially incredulous so making it a much longer time might have made their account seem ludicrous. 4.6 billion years is inconceivable to most people even today.

15. The new crybaby theists

Comment #430134 by RightWingAtheist on November 7, 2009 at 7:09 am

Hitchens says we won't ever forget (we hope) what it was like when these people had all of the power. Government-sanctioned hatred, murder, superstition, and abuse.

Now when they lose that power, they have nothing left but to protest that atheists are rude.

He also notes that Islam is currently playing both parts. In many countries large enough to be dangerous, Islam controls everything from petroleum to the brains of its citizens, enforced with murder. In North America and Western Europe, it "poses as a cringing minority" which is offended and in need of protection.

16. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430133 by mmurray on November 7, 2009 at 6:32 am

The real question is "why do you believe people you have never met who lived 2000 years ago and weren't even witnesses to the actual events?"

Or better even "why do you believe anything in the bible". Point them at Bart Ehrman or this Dan Dennett talk

http://richarddawkins.net/article,4547,The-Evolution-of-Confusion,Dan...

Michael

17. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430132 by mmurray on November 7, 2009 at 6:29 am

@SaintStephen

http://tinyurl.com/yc2jukw

Google is your friend, well at least when they aren't sucking up to totalitarian governments and watching everything you do.

Michael

18. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430131 by Et in Arcadia ego on November 7, 2009 at 6:27 am

"Black churches , places where black people worship white people". Somebody should make THAT billboard.

19. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430130 by FuerstOpus on November 7, 2009 at 5:53 am

So I've been reading all this stuff on the "new atheists" and the "atheist schism", and have been trying to decide whether this is even a real issue and how I feel about it, when...

I'm driven by the above video to order The Demon-Haunted World from Amazon (never read it). I click on the button to "Surprise Me" with an excerpt and end up on page 300. (hey! It works with the Bible, doesn't it? Why shouldn't I get guidance on Carl Sagan Day by randomly reading excerpts from this book) Thus wrote Dr. Sagan...

And yet, the chief deficiency I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarization: Us vs. Them - the sense that we have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you're sensible, you'll listen to us; and if not, you're beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across. It condemns the skeptics to permanent minority status; whereas, a compassionate approach that from the beginning acknowledges the human roots of pseudoscience and superstition might be much more widely accepted.

If I didn't know that my brain was evolved to find patterns even when none exist, I might think that this coincidence meant something. As it is I still don't know how I feel about the best strategy for fighting ignorance, but wanted to share.

20. Chief Rabbi Lord Sacks: Europe is dying from secularism

Comment #430129 by g-21-lto on November 7, 2009 at 5:46 am

We need religion in order to convince women to become broodmares?

OK, I'm sold. [/sarcasm]

21. Amazon.com Confuses the Ray Comfort Version of 'Origin of Species' and the real one!

Comment #430128 by Parapraxis on November 7, 2009 at 5:44 am

Terrible.
Amazon.ca ONLY has the Ray Comfort version.
This is very sad.

Oh and just to let you guys know (many I'm sure already do)
The bastardized creationist versions are published under "Bridge-Logos Publishers/Foundation".
Here is there mission statement:
“Our desire at the Bridge-Logos Foundation is first to glorify God through the production and distribution of Christian books and Bibles. To use the profits from these books and Bibles to assist where possible those reaching the lost and impoverished either through books or funds.”

...

22. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430127 by Bolland on November 7, 2009 at 3:49 am

I would prefer:

"Don't believe in God, devils, witches, angels, etc. Don't worry, you're not alone".

They are all part of the same package and joining them up reinforces the message.

23. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430126 by HourglassMemory on November 7, 2009 at 3:37 am

From time to time I catch something by Sagan on Youtube or in bookstores and such.
It's like he's not even dead to me.
Of course he is, unfortunately, but to me he's everywhere, he still manifests.

24. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430125 by mikkala on November 7, 2009 at 3:28 am

Carl was the man who's words, at long last, rang true and reverberated all the way to the core of this person who was otherwise satisfied to accept conventional wisdom.

I remember the deep seeded emotions that were unleashed on the day when I happened upon Carl's Cosmos series in it's entirety, just before it was removed from Google video. I spent the next 3 or 4 afternoons going from "The Shores of the Cosmic Ocean" All the way through to "Who Speaks for Earth" I don't think I even blinked, except maybe to wipe the tears from my face.

My best vacation to date, involved A; Richard's Ancestor's Tale, and, Demon Haunted World. I had my nose buried in that book pretty much every time I was at rest. It was surreal to listen to Carl in my head, whilst overlooking magnificent northern vistas in Finland's Midnight Sun.

Demon Haunted World is, without hesitation, the first book of mine that I offer to lend to the people I care about. If that one's already on loan, Cosmos fills in nicely.

I guess what I'm really getting at, is that Carl Sagan is no less than my hero. And this seems an appropriate forum to share it with you all.

R.I.P Carl Sagan.

25. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430124 by KRKBAB on November 7, 2009 at 3:00 am

14. Comment #430078 by Stonyground - That's a real good point. In fact, I think most younger people in the developed world would eventually shrink to the postition of deism if you talked to them long enough and really asked the tough questions. It's feels good to think this way- who knows if it's really happening. I think in perhaps two more generations we'll have a clearer picture as to whether this is true or not.

26. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430123 by Dorothy Sutton on November 7, 2009 at 2:59 am

"Beautiful, my copy of cosmos arrived just today."

Beautiful. My copy of the cosmos arrives every day - when I open my eyes each morning.

p.s. I was "Commonhumanity" before (the one who writes poems). I've decided to use my real name.
Where can I find instructions for an avatar?

27. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430122 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 2:50 am

theinquisitor

The only person who can forgive you is the person you wronged, not some authority. Vicarious redemption is an immoral concept.

This seems to be a rip off from Hitchens. :)

But Christian belief is actually even more twisted than vicarious redemption.

From djohn's account he actually hasn't wronged anyone, but he is weeping and degrading himself because he has a tendency to do something nasty. No one can forgive him because a potential victim for would be wrong doings is not a victim at all. In Christian theology though, even when there is no victim a would be sin is an actual sin committed against God for which we need his forgiveness.

So lusting after your neighbour's wife without actually doing anything about it is still a sin against God even though there is no actual victim to seek forgiveness from, same goes with other things like consensual gay sex. By turning many victimless activities or even pure thought into 'sins' Christianity manages to built an industry based on guilt.

If there is anyone who need forgiveness it is the religious hucksters who have guilt tripped him and others like him into believing that they are worthless sinners in need of a savior. These religious pimps should seek forgiveness from all the unhappy people whom they have hoodwinked and developed a guilt complex as a result.

28. 'Why Evolution Is True'

Comment #430121 by prolibertas on November 7, 2009 at 2:26 am

We should be getting that correlation-between-God-belief-and-societal-dysfunction graph on the buses. They can argue against the other slogans we've put up, but they can't argue with the stats.

29. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430120 by theinquisitor on November 7, 2009 at 2:21 am

"I need a savior as I am a sinner"

In other words, you want to avoid moral responsibility by scapegoating and human sacrifice. If you did something wrong, then accept it and face the consequences. The only person who can forgive you is the person you wronged, not some authority. Vicarious redemption is an immoral concept.

30. The new crybaby theists

Comment #430119 by Hirnlego on November 7, 2009 at 2:19 am

"So where to earthquakes and tsunamis fit into this ?"
And what about diseases?
And imagine if a politician had the same power as god yet choose to do nothing to prevent (MASSIVE amounts of) suffering? Wouldn't people be outraged? But gods are for some reason excused.

31. The Upside of Feeling Down

Comment #430118 by Gamma ut on November 7, 2009 at 2:12 am

Im definitely not an expert on this sort of thing, but I'll give it a shot.

I have heard recently that people tend to see the world through "rose-colored glasses" when they are reasonably content -- or they tend to have a more optimistic opinion or evaluation of themselves and their behavior. But sadness causes a person to have a more realistic opinion. I don't know if this would be the same for clinical depression. The paper I am taking the info from is about sadness only (specifically to music's relation to sadness) but it seems that if it is true, there would be some evolutionary benefit to having a temporary reality check from time to time. Again, I am definitely not an expert.

32. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430117 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 1:40 am

43. Comment #430115 by clunkclickeverytrip

djohn - why did you choose Christianity? Why don't you try another more uplifting religion for a while to see if your self esteem improves.

Cos he's a masochist? :) Medieval monks got a sexual high by whipping themselves senseless, I was told (Maybe Cartomancer can verify that) Being a Christian is probably cheaper than hiring a dominatrix. :)

So there is no escape from lust for poor djohn. Even his very faith may turn out to be an expression of lust! There is no escape from guilt and sin, he must be pleased with this realization. On that Freudian train of thought perhaps the crufix is an expression of latent necrophilia.

33. Chief Rabbi Lord Sacks: Europe is dying from secularism

Comment #430116 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 1:19 am

secularism had made people too selfish to have children.

Actually having many children is a form of social insurance in pre modern agrarian societies, where manpower is capital.

There is an old Chinese saying that goes 'having children is a way to prepare for old age'. So having kids is a kind of economical investment.

What would be the motivation if not 'selfishness'?

This way of thinking was later codified into religious dogmas and perpetuated beyond its practical usefulness even in places where having many children is no longer an economical benefit. As is always the case, a shift in thinking always lags somewhat behind changes in actual material conditions.

As a corollary to this observation, for those who rightly argue that over population is an issue needs to be addressed,--at least in some parts of the world, --you cannot change behaviours by simply preaching to the people. While in some cases having many children is the result of archaic ideas codified in cultural expectations (religion being only one aspect of it), in other cases having many children still has a real economical significance. The material conditions that motivate people to have more children must be understood and addressed. This means we have to invest in improving the social safety net, infrastructures and creating viable developmental options for the developing world. Just telling people that the Bible is nonsense and they should have less kids is not going to work if having kids fulfills a material need and it is not being addressed otherwise.

Edited I am only talking about 'selfishness' in the literal, direct economical sense here. Some people have said that having children is 'selfish' in the genetic sense, but that is only a metaphor and the agents of 'selfishness' in the metaphor are the
genes themselves, not the parents who choose to have children, so it is not really addressing the point made by the Rabbi.

34. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430115 by clunkclickeverytrip on November 7, 2009 at 1:18 am

djohn - why did you choose Christianity? Why don't you try another more uplifting religion for a while to see if your self esteem improves. If it doesn't, then maybe, since you have read and enjoyed books about evolutionary biology, you will be ready to try atheism. Every atheist on this website is a damn sight happier with themselves as people than you by the sounds of it, although we are a rather stoic bunch as a rule.

35. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430114 by Crazycharlie on November 7, 2009 at 1:13 am

I wish I had seen a billboard like this when I was about 12. It would have lightened my heart to know other people were out there like me. Let's hope millions of others will be encouraged by these billboards.

None of us would be seeing these billboards or the ads on subways if it wasn't for Richard, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Dan, PZ, etc. They are the intellectual muscle behind the open questioning and criticism of religion we've been hearing for the last few years.

36. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430113 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 1:10 am

39. Comment #430105 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 12:18 am

a healthy sexual appetite is good if you express it in socially acceptable ways...

Does cowgirl in the cramped driver's seat of a Toyota Celica, at 2:00 PM in the public parking lot of Margaritaville in Capitola, with the steering wheel and gearshifter as handholds -- qualify as "healthy"?

A friend of mine once did that...

37. Prayer Cult Nation: Faith Healing Scams & Healthcare Reform

Comment #430112 by Border Collie on November 7, 2009 at 1:02 am

Rod, somebody must've prayed for those lizards that grew their tails back after losing such to predators or evil pre-pubescent boys. Hey, if it works for lizards ... And, it works because lizards have been around for zillions of years, much more time for prayer (by somebody) to work. No, wait, the world is only six thousand years old. Must be something else at work here. Nevermind.

38. Chief Rabbi Lord Sacks: Europe is dying from secularism

Comment #430111 by Border Collie on November 7, 2009 at 12:49 am

Well, everything's cleared up for me. How 'bout ya'll?

39. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430110 by kaiserkriss on November 7, 2009 at 12:37 am

Christian: I read your link and find the whole thing rather mind boggling. I hope Justice will prevail and the free get out of jail card of religion will be withdrawn forthwith. This would set a very useful precedent in case law that defamation laws also apply to the church and ignorance is not an excuse. jcw

40. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430109 by William Carlton on November 7, 2009 at 12:34 am

How serendipitous. I watched this video earlier today before it was posted here, just for the hell of it.

41. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430108 by Steven Mading on November 7, 2009 at 12:33 am

Carl Sagan was, in the 1970's, sort of like the American version of the chair Richard Dawkins retired from - he took on the job of trying to communicate to the masses what is so interesting about science .

42. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430107 by kaiserkriss on November 7, 2009 at 12:25 am

Paula, Christian and all others fluent in German, I urge you to drop off a message of condemnation with Meisner as I did at his official web page..http://www.erzbistum-koeln.de/erzbistum/erzbischof/jcm_mailformular

I have yet to receive a reply from the old guy or one of his cronies.

By the way, Paula your translation was excellent, better than I could have ever done, despite me being fluent in both languages Also, the bit about Dr. Schmidt-Salomon suing Bishop Muller is too hilarious... Made my day THANKS! jcw

43. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430106 by Crazycharlie on November 7, 2009 at 12:21 am

Atheists don't have schisms. Only dogmatic infallible religions have schisms.

44. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430105 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 12:18 am

djohn

I did name some of my sins. Idolatry, greed, lust, selfishness, etc.

So, what is the big deal? We all have such propensities to differing degree, the point is how you control and channel these impulses. For example, lust is bad if you decide to go out to rape someone, but a healthy sexual appetite is good if you express it in socially acceptable ways(edited I have no frigging clue what 'idolatry' even means or why it is a 'sin'. Maybe you're into worshiping rock stars or something, it is stupid, but not a sin.)

You sound like a victim of religious guilt tripping. You should see a counselor, and I don't mean one from the Jesus camp.

You remind me of a Christian I once knew. Albert would pull a long face all day and with him the topic would always turn to how horrible and worthless a human being he was,--and by extension we all are,-- and that only Jesus could redeem him etc etc. I felt uneasy simply by being in his vicinity, he gave off a very unpleasant 'vibe' (metaphorically speaking for the language police out there). Always mournful and sad and on his kneels praying for forgiveness, it must suck to be him. I hope you are not like that, yet.

P.S. If you internalize the guilt as a result of childhood exposure to Christianity,--I can't say for sure that it is the case,--then it would be a perfect example of religious indoctrination as child abuse. There is no other description for drumming into the head of a child that he is a sinful and worthless being.

45. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430104 by HappyPrimate on November 7, 2009 at 12:06 am

Sounds like our new poster djohn really needs to get himself a copy of Sagan's Demon Haunted World. After digesting that, he can move on to RDs books and lastly top it off with Hitchens' god is not Great. Then he can come back let us know how it went. I have Sagan's Cosmos DVDs and they are awesome.

46. Since the dawn of time

Comment #430103 by Bonzai on November 6, 2009 at 11:50 pm

Forrest argues that new atheists should respect the personal nature of faith, and nurture a sense of humility by recognising that scientific evidence does not rule out existence of the divine. They should accept that there is a wide range of views, she says, and stop insisting that everyone follow the "one true way" of atheism. Failing to do so only turns people off in droves

This is rich. It is like the flasher complaining that his privacy is being violated when being told that his sexual fetish is, shall we say, rather questionable.

If the believers truly keep their faith 'personal' then we won't be discussing it, would we?

If Priests, Rabbi and Imams are not out there trying to tell us every fucking day that they have some unique expertise in morality and that the society should be structured based on their superstitions I am sure many 'new atheists' would prefer to spend their times on more interesting things than knocking religion. Personal madness may not deserve respect, but I won't give a shit as long as you keep it to yourself.

(As Border Collie said above not all beliefs deserve respect even if it is personal. But my main point is that while believers have a problem of keeping their idiocies to themselves they turn around and demand 'respect' for their 'personal' faith when it suits them.)

47. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430102 by TIKI AL on November 6, 2009 at 11:49 pm

Was Carl a 6.999 to infinity on the Richard scale?

"Sagan, however, denied that he was an atheist: "An atheist has to know a lot more than I know."[33] In reply to a question in 1996 about his religious beliefs, Sagan answered, "I'm agnostic."[34] Sagan maintained that the idea of a creator of the universe was difficult to prove or disprove and that the only conceivable scientific discovery that could challenge it would be an infinitely old universe.[35]" (wiki)

djohn: Could you please help me with a survey I am doing?
1. Do you share the same religion as your parents and grandparents?
2. On a scale of 1.(leaving your hat on in church) to 10.(having 11 bodies found in your house), how do you rate yourself as a sinner?

48. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430101 by Corylus on November 6, 2009 at 11:42 pm

Thanks Christian!

I found German very difficult indeed - so much respect to those like you and Paula who can manage both English and German so effortlessly.

49. 'The Evolution of Confusion'

Comment #430100 by Bonzai on November 6, 2009 at 11:33 pm

21. Comment #428554 by kederar

Joe isn't supposed to set an example of actually doing what he preaches (sells), nobody is expecting Joe to use the auto transmission he's selling, but everybody is expecting that a preacher will believe in God and the tenets of religion that he preaches (sells) to his audience.

You can't be more wrong. Haven't you heard about the coke employee who got fired for drinking Pepsi?

http://money.cnn.com/2003/06/13/news/funny/coke_pepsi/

50. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430099 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 11:32 pm

34. Comment #430095 by Corylus on November 6, 2009 at 11:04 pm

djohn, you don't have to supply any personal anecdotes on here. Just provide some evidence for your concept of sin.

Party pooper.

51. Scientists decode genome of domestic horse

Comment #430098 by superwolf on November 6, 2009 at 11:25 pm

Debridement, MMJ and Rivulets references embedded in your name and avatar?

52. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430097 by serotonin_wraith on November 6, 2009 at 11:20 pm

djohn,

1) Original sin is mentioned enough times in the Bible, but you're saying you don't know if it's true?

2) But we're not talking about humans.

3) So suffering was to teach other life forms something before humans evolved? What lessons do you think are learned if say, an antelope gets chased down and has its neck broken by the teeth of a predator? Or if people are drowned by a tsunami?

Avoiding things that might harm you - why is there even harm? Any benefits you might think there are to it now won't be there in this 'new world' you believe is to come, so will it be good or bad when pain ends?

53. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430096 by Bonzai on November 6, 2009 at 11:07 pm

Nothing wrong with acknowledging limits as long as it is based on reasons rather and superstitious taboos.

I think the possibilities opened up by biotech does raise valid ethical questions, but citing scriptures is not a valid way to address those questions. God is never a meaningful answer, whether to scientific questions or moral ones. Alleged divine revelations and injunctions are just excuses to legitimize ignorance and prejudice of very human origin.

54. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430095 by Corylus on November 6, 2009 at 11:04 pm

Comment #430090 by SaintStephen:

32. Comment #430087 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 10:18 pm

I did name some of my sins. Idolatry, greed, lust, selfishness, etc.

Come come now! That's like saying you had arthropods for dinner.

Speak for yourself. I'm a vegetarian. Plus, I find the whole business of idolatry deeply shocking and will have none of it.

djohn, you don't have to supply any personal anecdotes on here. Just provide some evidence for your concept of sin.

55. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430094 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 10:45 pm

88. Comment #430092 by Cartomancer on November 6, 2009 at 10:40 pm

Good to see you in a better mood! Hee hee hee!

56. Since the dawn of time

Comment #430093 by Border Collie on November 6, 2009 at 10:42 pm

'Forrest argues that new atheists should respect the personal nature of faith, and nurture a sense of humility by recognising that scientific evidence does not rule out existence of the divine. They should accept that there is a wide range of views, she says, and stop insisting that everyone follow the "one true way" of atheism. Failing to do so only turns people off in droves.'

There they are again, respect, humility and acceptance (of a wide range of views) ... of complete and utter idiocy and of people who have none of the previous virtues regarding us, science, reason, truth, knowledge, etc. My question is why does it apply to us and not them? Oh, I forgot, they have God on their side, they're right by default, they're not required to stand up to any sort of scrutiny ... because a lot of people have believed something for a very long time and have a book to prove it.

57. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430092 by Cartomancer on November 6, 2009 at 10:40 pm

Anyway, what's so wrong with cloning? I have a clone already, it's no big deal. Admittedly he does have a tendency to spend too much on clothes and fart unashamedly in public, but he hasn't tried to take over the world yet. In fact he even does something useful occasionally if you pay him enough.

Come to that I AM a clone. Cardinal Meisner is being very offensive to all the world's clones. How dare he express such blatant clonophobia in public?!

58. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430091 by DRogers1082 on November 6, 2009 at 10:39 pm

this bilboard is awesome. i would love to get one put up where i live. i give them a standing ovation

59. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430090 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 10:26 pm

32. Comment #430087 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 10:18 pm

I did name some of my sins. Idolatry, greed, lust, selfishness, etc.

Come come now! That's like saying you had arthropods for dinner. A wee bit more specificity is called for here, if you expect to learn anything this evening. We're like a bed and breakfast here at RD.net. We don't want you to go away hungry.

A few choice curse words, maybe? Sniffing occasionally around the neighbor's wife, are we?

Do tell.

60. NOVA | Becoming Human | Preview | PBS

Comment #430089 by imokyrok on November 6, 2009 at 10:23 pm

I really enjoyed that programme. A lot of food for thought. It was hard to find as it's not available outside the US so here's where I managed to download it from. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BDI62JJK

61. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430088 by Jack Rawlinson on November 6, 2009 at 10:21 pm

God... I'm developing a rare old loathing for the CiF commenter Tim Skellett...

62. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430087 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 10:18 pm

I did name some of my sins. Idolatry, greed, lust, selfishness, etc.

I adapt, I do not evolve ala natural selection. My ancestors did evolve over time.

I have read all of Dawkins' books and agree with most of the contents of most of them. I have learned a lot from him.

63. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430086 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 10:03 pm

30. Comment #430081 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 9:39 pm

1. I do not know about original sin, I have a propensity to sin.

Can you name a few of your "sins" for us? Don't worry, I'm an ordained minister -- just check the halo. Confess.

64. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430085 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 9:55 pm

Civility has its uses, but we should not be afraid of satire and mockery as weapons against religious power.

Parent: Honey, I have something to tell you.

Child: What, Mummy?

Parent: There isn't a Santa Claus.

Child: What? You're MOCKING ME! You know how much I love and depend on Santa Claus! He sees me when I'm sleeping. He knows when I'm awake. He knows when I've been bad or good... so I'm always good, for GOODNESS SAKE, Mummy! But without Santa, I might as well go steal an I-Pod Shuffle from the Apple store. Plus, you can't prove he doesn't exist, Mummy!

Parent: Your father and I give you presents because we LOVE you, honey. That isn't going to change.

Child: Um.... yeah, fuck Santa.

65. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430084 by Christian on November 6, 2009 at 9:54 pm

I seem to recall 'darf' being more "polite" than 'kann'.

That's true but in this case "können" means the capability or knowledge how to do something whereas "dürfen" can be translated as permission to do something.

66. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430083 by TIKI AL on November 6, 2009 at 9:53 pm

Stonyground @ 82: "images of the Virgin Mary that are so piss poor that only the devout can see them."

Not just the devout, but also scholars with Rorschach doctorates, people under the influence of hallucinagenic drugs, cloud translators, and thermopayne technicians.

67. Prayer Cult Nation: Faith Healing Scams & Healthcare Reform

Comment #430082 by GBile on November 6, 2009 at 9:52 pm

It would be rude to conclude that this way the deluded will die out quickly.

Yes, that would be rude.

??

68. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430081 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 9:39 pm

1. I do not know about original sin, I have a propensity to sin.

2. Why do people spend time to plan a wedding? In the case of humans, it takes a long time to create the material, etc. for life, then brains, then humans.

3. There is a promised time of no more suffering, but today we have it. Pain can teach us things, which is one reason I am glad I can feel things, so I can avoid things that might harm me.

69. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430080 by Corylus on November 6, 2009 at 9:38 pm

Paula

No, it's more than that.

Even worse than I thought then!

70. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430079 by rod-the-farmer on November 6, 2009 at 9:36 pm

I left a phone msg with the reporter suggesting he should tape the follow-on Q7A session due to be held 23 Nov. DO NOT tell the audience they are being taped, thus preserving the spontaneity of their reactions. Then post it on YouTube.

71. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430078 by Stonyground on November 6, 2009 at 9:35 pm

I find the claims that religion is not dying out interesting. Certainly those in the nineteenth century, that predicted the imminent demise of religion, would be most surprised to find it still around in the twentyfirst. However, in the developed world The notion that religion is alive and kicking is only being maintained by a shrinking minority of old people making more noise in proportion to their ever decreasing numbers. In the cut and thrust of modern day political dialogue their opinions are either ignored or ridiculed as the outdated fairy tales that they are.

72. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430077 by Paula Kirby on November 6, 2009 at 9:34 pm

Corylus: I seem to recall 'darf' being more "polite" than 'kann'.

Is there an accusation of impertinence here? (One that does not carry across into English).

No, it's more than that. He's lamenting what he sees as the tendency to feel that we MAY do things simply because we CAN. He's saying that we no longer acknowledge limits to what we are allowed to do, because we no longer acknowledge God or God's laws. He's talking primarily about science, particularly genetics and cloning, where we are able to do certain things that he clearly feels we should not do.

73. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430076 by the great teapot on November 6, 2009 at 9:33 pm

"OK, let’s hear Christians explain how JC died and then came back to life"

Come on blackjack that really is a stupid question. For someone who can create the universe do you imagine that would be difficult.It would be like doing a card trick.
The real question is "why do you believe people you have never met who lived 2000 years ago and weren't even witnesses to the actual events?"

74. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430075 by robotaholic on November 6, 2009 at 9:31 pm

Here is one of the comments on the website:

So when they sneeze, we can't say God bless you? I bet you anything if they found themselves in a life/death situation they will call out to God. Regardless God loves them and the sad part about it is that they've allowed satan to convince them that God does not exist. I will pray for them.

Notice we atheists are convinced god doesn't exist but we all really know god does exist on our deathbed.

75. 'The Evolution of Confusion'

Comment #430074 by Corylus on November 6, 2009 at 9:27 pm

What an interesting talk.

Dan’s project with disbelieving clergy sounds very interesting indeed. Not the first time a philosopher has waded in on this issue though. This is Hume in support of a young man who needed to earn a crust and who (at that time in history) had only the clergy as a respectable route to employment. His take was basically “meh – people believe anything - there is a lot of bullshit about anyway and a guy’s gotta eat”.

Is it putting too great a respect on the vulgar, and on their superstitions, to pique oneself with sincerity to regard to them. Did one ever make it a point of honour to speak truth to madmen or children? If the thing were worthy of being treated gravely, I should tell him, that the Pythian oracle, with the approbation of Xenophon, advised everyone to worship to the gods. I wish it were still in my power to be a hypocrite in this particular. The common duties of society require it; and the ecclesiastical profession adds only a little more to an innocent dissimulation, or rather simulation, without which it is impossible to pass through the world. Am I a liar, because I order my servant to say, I am not at home, when I do not desire to see company?

I don’t know whether this advice is still valid today (I doubt it) or even if it was valid then, but you can have sympathy with people in a financial bind.

76. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430073 by Corylus on November 6, 2009 at 9:22 pm

Comment #430052 by Christian:

Indeed, in German using "Mann" in that context sounds quite awkward.

Translation is a tricky business.

My German is very rusty but this bit stuck out...

We no longer differentiate between ‘can’ and ‘may’.

I seem to recall 'darf' being more "polite" than 'kann'.

Is there an accusation of impertinence here? (One that does not carry across into English).

I smell an implication that some things are not supposed to be questioned without explicit permission - or am I dreaming it?

77. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430072 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 9:20 pm

18. Comment #430051 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 7:22 pm

My sin is my selfishness, my arrogance, my greediness, my lust, my idolatry, etc. I need help to save me from myself.

Jesus offered to save me by offering himself in my place. I accepted and continue to accept his gift and the Holy Spirit then enlivens my spirit. I agree this sounds hokey to a non-believer; which is what I was before I accepted Jesus.

Where does Jesus fit into your concept of evolution? Did Jesus evolve, or better yet, did YOU evolve? Take your time... think about your answer.

Swotty Postlethwaite, our club’s tame intellectual, is not here to help you, but a while back our resident wag Professor Richard Woofter had some advice that may be applicable :

"There's no bally God, so put a sock in it and have a gargle with the lads."

78. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430071 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 9:07 pm

23. Comment #430061 by uuaschbaer on November 6, 2009 at 8:28 pm blockquote>Beautiful, my copy of cosmos arrived just today.

Proof positive that Carl Sagan is God. I mean COME ON... what are the odds?

If a Bible arrived at a theist's home on December 25th, say, there would be much rejoicing and prayer for God's little miracle. Even if they ordered it from Amazon two weeks prior.

79. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430070 by Stonyground on November 6, 2009 at 9:07 pm

I don't worship science as a god but if I did I think I would be right in claiming that my god was a lot more powerful than his.

His god used to be omnipotent but since the arrival of my god, his has been reduced to producing images of the Virgin Mary that are so piss poor that only the devout can see them.

My god has reduced his ability to control the weather to pathetic after the fact claims that something that happened naturally was his will.

In the US, parents are now being prosecuted for relying on his god instead of my god to cure sick children, the reason being that it is an established fact that my god would have saved the children and his god just let them die.

His god claims that he wants to rule the whole world but has dominion over less than 20% of it after 2000 years, my god has achieved more than that in 200 years.

80. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430069 by serotonin_wraith on November 6, 2009 at 9:05 pm

djohn37050,

1) Do you believe we are born with original sin, and deserve punishment even if we haven't personally done anything wrong?

2) Why did God wait billions of years before getting round to creating his favourite species?

3) Why is there suffering in the world? It can't be blamed on the fall of humans if we only just came on the scene.

81. Dawkins et al bring us into disrepute

Comment #430068 by Logician on November 6, 2009 at 9:01 pm

Why, Bonzai, you nasty child! ;p
Not only do you see through the hype, you also see through the insecurity of hanging onto the names...
Meanwhile, back in the real world of actually doing things as opposed to the ivory tower fantasy land of bloviating bullshitters (you know, the "professional philosophers"), we are getting the work done that will guide the theists into the light of reason.
And without obfuscating the argument with deleterious drivel.
How... original!

82. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430067 by Big T on November 6, 2009 at 8:55 pm

Re: Comment #430018 by Saint Stephen (the one with George Bush in it, and 'Stupidity' under his picture) - right on! You said a mouthful, sir! Sagan even wrote, in 'The Demon Haunted World' that the next charlatan to come along might have a war he wants to sell us on. What an accurate prediction.

83. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430066 by prolibertas on November 6, 2009 at 8:49 pm

'"moderate" religion (i.e., almost anything that does not dispute evolutionary theory)...'

It's always seemed to me that if the definition of 'fundamentalist' should arise from any one particular doctrinal issue, then it should be the doctrine of Hell, not creationism. I'd take a creationist who didn't believe in Hell over a theistic-evolutionist who did, any day.

84. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430065 by meisteh on November 6, 2009 at 8:45 pm

20. Comment #430056 by Sarmatae1 on November 6, 2009 at 7:41 pm

Agreed, thanks Sarmatae1! Amazing.

85. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430064 by esuther on November 6, 2009 at 8:45 pm

Am I the only one who looked at the clouds floating by on the billboard and suddenly heard in her head...'The Siiimmm sooonnns' ?

86. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430063 by zbob on November 6, 2009 at 8:36 pm

20. Comment #430056 by Sarmatae1 on November 6, 2009 at 7:41 pm

Those two videos are GREAT!

87. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430062 by Simonw on November 6, 2009 at 8:29 pm

Sally, I think your praise of Paula skills maybe premature as the translation reads like an incoherent rant to me.

Oh the irony in choosing "Easter", which isn't even named after their god, but a preceding one.

The atheists of ancient Greece didn't believe in the gods worshiped before his god, and the atheists of the future won't believe in the gods that people worship long after his god is forgotten or consigned to dusty books of mythology.

A curse be upon those who import foreign religions to Europe's shores.

Be sure that Odin will send crows to eat his entrails whilst he sleeps.

88. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430061 by uuaschbaer on November 6, 2009 at 8:28 pm

Beautiful, my copy of cosmos arrived just today.

89. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430060 by markg on November 6, 2009 at 8:26 pm

comments by djohn37050:

I am a sinner, that is I do not have it all together and need help.


My sin is my selfishness, my arrogance, my greediness, my lust, my idolatry, etc. I need help to save me from myself.

I forgive you, that is unless you've killed someone or committed some other criminal act. If so, you may be answering to someone else. If not, then stop worrying and enjoy your life.

90. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430059 by caraz84 on November 6, 2009 at 8:16 pm

AM A ZING please get them billboards all over the uk so no one has much of a choice but to look at them

91. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430058 by Stafford Gordon on November 6, 2009 at 8:13 pm

I'm going to enjoy this; again.

92. England's libel laws don't just gag me, they blindfold you

Comment #430057 by Eric Blair on November 6, 2009 at 8:03 pm

Stephenray: I'm not sure the "media free to lie" situation is much different in the UK or Canada (which are similar to each other). In Canada, a federal regulator can take away a broadcaster's licence but whether it would do so is another matter. It would more likely just chastise the broadcaster. Newspapers, on the other hand, would only face the wagging finger of a national oversight council.

This only applies to "general" lies, not defamatory lies, which are of course actionable in court.

EB

93. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430056 by Sarmatae1 on November 6, 2009 at 7:41 pm

In celebration of "Saganseve" HERE is Carl singing with Feynmann, deGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye.

A warning about this next video, the song is one that gets stuck in your head. It did mine anyway.

Same guy who made that video made THIS ONE of Sagan singing with Hawking too.

18. Comment #430051 by djohn37050
My sin is my selfishness, my arrogance, my greediness, my lust, my idolatry, etc. I need help to save me from myself.

Luckily I never had those problems myself, I hope that doing that helps you. I don't see the benefits of vicarious redemption, seems somewhat immoral to me. Scapegoating never really solved anything for me I have found, but to each their own, if that's what works for you go for it.

94. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430055 by sbooder on November 6, 2009 at 7:37 pm

I have a couple of Sagan's DVDs, But it takes me 3 or 4 days to watch them, because like David Attenborough's voice, it puts me to sleep. I then have to watch them again.

95. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430054 by Eric Blair on November 6, 2009 at 7:36 pm

Since Russell and Udo brought it up, it's a pity they misunderstand how marketing works:

Once you think in that way, from a kind of marketing perspective, it can take over your approach to what you think you ought to say. Sincerity goes out the window, and everything must be "framed" to please the audience. We doubt that this strategy can work.

Good marketing doesn't "frame" messages "to please the audience." It decides which audience it needs to "move" to accomplish its goals, then uses tactics that will influence that audience.

The key to successful marketing is your objective, or what you want "people" to do. From that flow identifying your audience and your specific message. You also have to understand your audience's wants and needs.

Your objective may be, for example, to stop people from eating any form of animal product. You may find telling them about the health benefits of veganism only works among those meat-eaters and vegetarians whose concerns about health outweigh their taste preferences. Likewise a focus on the costs of animal products versus vegetables, legumes and fruit won't work on people who don't mind paying extra for "good taste."

But these are at least useful approaches for defining your target audience.

I'm not clear how satirizing beef eaters or pork eaters would have much effect on those who only eat chicken or fish - or on vegetarians - who might well laugh along, thinking, "Oh, those silly eaters of red-meat (or near-red meat)."

A vegan marketer might well conclude that the best hope for converts would be among vegetarians, who already accept some of the principles vegans follow. So what would be the best strategy - present rational, evidence-based arguments on why consuming no animal products is more healthy than consuming even limited amounts and kinds; or make "light-hearted" fun of those who persist in eating such products?

My guess is the former, but a good marketer would research and analyze the vegetarian "market" to see what specific influences make veggies avoid meat yet still eat animal products, and then build a strategy to fit that prevailing mentality.

They then, of course, measure the results of the strategy's various tactics and see what worked and what didn't, and/or if the whole strategy is off the mark.

Otherwise, it's just guesswork and opinion and a waste of resources, which is what much of this discussion is. It can still be fun, of course, but it's not serious.

EB

96. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430053 by RightWingAtheist on November 6, 2009 at 7:27 pm

My dogma about politeness and debate is that if we think someone is a primitive idiot, they should know it. Using manners to mask it is almost like lying.

Religion in particular deserves to hear this truth because religion praises stupidity with glorified synonyms. No, that's not dedicated faith, it's stubborn stupidity. All we are doing is repeating their own statements in words which would be used for the same mentality on other subjects.

97. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430052 by Christian on November 6, 2009 at 7:26 pm

Paula Kirby: Yes, that's correct. I translated it as 'man' and 'mankind' rather than 'human' and 'humankind' because most sermons I have ever heard have used that terminology, and Meisner didn't strike me as a clergyman who was likely to use the more PC version if he were speaking English.
Sorry, I meant to respond to this when it was first mentioned, but I got distracted.

Indeed, in German using "Mann" in that context sounds quite awkward. Otherwise I'm pretty sure he'd have no problem using it ;)

98. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430051 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 7:22 pm

My sin is my selfishness, my arrogance, my greediness, my lust, my idolatry, etc. I need help to save me from myself.

Jesus offered to save me by offering himself in my place. I accepted and continue to accept his gift and the Holy Spirit then enlivens my spirit. I agree this sounds hokey to a non-believer; which is what I was before I accepted Jesus.

99. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430050 by Christian on November 6, 2009 at 7:17 pm

It's still ongoing, so best start praying for the right outcome ;-)

On his website Schmidt-Salomon has an overview of the whole affair (it's only in German, though).

100. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430049 by Paula Kirby on November 6, 2009 at 7:16 pm

Christian: In the German version he used "Mensch" which is not gender specific. I guess this just got lost in translation.

Yes, that's correct. I translated it as 'man' and 'mankind' rather than 'human' and 'humankind' because most sermons I have ever heard have used that terminology, and Meisner didn't strike me as a clergyman who was likely to use the more PC version if he were speaking English.
Sorry, I meant to respond to this when it was first mentioned, but I got distracted.